Wincest & J2 fan

[Wincest & J2 fan]

[amoreanonyname]

I also once again need to go hard on how often and how explicitly Show hammers that Sam and Dean are Literally Married after Season 8.

"I made you a promise in that church!"

"You and Dean, that's something special."

"You and Dean, you chose each other." "Yeah, I did. We did."

"You're lying to Sam like he's your wife..."

"Come back to me."

"So does Sam want a divorce?"

"I wanted you back."

"I can't lose you."

Like, they were actually not even a little subtle about this. Nothing physical was happening, but there were definitely full couple vibes going on that they weren't even trying to hide.

[Wincest & J2 fan]

[aborddelimpala]

They've been saying it all along. Some of you just weren't listening.

[hippychick006]

One of the many things that angers me about Destiel/found family stans is that the show and it’s two leads made it clear repeatedly, not only what the show they were making was about but also what show they WANTED to continue making. The audacity of “fans” who didn’t watch the first three seasons or got into it because of gifs that lied about a ship to expect the show to change to meet their very niche demands is off the scale entitlement at its worst. One of the other things that angers is the attempted erasure of ace which as Jared said, this was one of very few shows that was doing that.

[eisforeidolon]

This.

It's fine if someone started watching SPN and decided it wasn't what they wanted in a show, but the answer to that? Is to go watch something else.

Not only is it an absurd level of entitlement to expect a show to change its fundamental basis because any number of fans want something else - let alone just a fraction of them? It's completely disingenuous to blame the show and its stars for hanging on to those expectations to the bitter end when said stars of the show consistently reiterated over and over exactly what the show was - and wasn't - about. (Are still reiterating, as recently as this past weekend, 2.5+ years after it ended.)

Certain fans refusing to listen because they preferred what fan-written meta full of gross stereotypes and the known troll of the supporting cast promised instead is on those fans' own heads.

[wif-san]

Originally posted by ihiphop

Preach.

[Wincest & J2 fan]

garethoforkney asked:

So, so many things I want to address in your excellent response to my first Ask - and they don’t give you enough room in the Comments, at least not for a single on - so here I am again.

I think you and I are mostly on the same page regarding Sam’s reasons for staying in hunting. You could see Sam’s conflict over sometimes wanting a normal life as being an example of his codependency - while he sometimes wants that, what he wants MOST of all is to be joined at the hip to Dean all the time. His occasional desire for ‘normal’ is overridden by his much greater desire to be with his big brother. As you point out when mentioning Sam’s issues with John - we can even question if Sam even did really and truly *ever* want a normal life in any way, and whether it’s just something he *thought* he wanted, but deep down didn’t? Similar to how Dean thought he wanted (or partially wanted) a safe family life with a partner and offspring, but realises he doesn’t want or enjoy the reality of it that much.

There are a number of things about the way Sam was written in Season 8 that are weird and inconsistent, and just plain out of character to me. Up to that point, I can’t remember Sam ever expressing a hope to have a normal life again since late Season 1 (and possibly Season 2.) Any wishes he had for a normal life had - as far as the canon/textual evidence goes - long disappeared by that point. The only reason he tried to get a regular job in early Season Five was because he didn’t trust himself to be able to hunt - not because he actively *wanted* to stop hunting. He was doing it for pragmatic reasons only. So in early Season 8, Sam suddenly talking to Dean about wanting to give up hunting after they find Kevin felt really forced and out of nowhere and just didn’t seem genuine.

It could be argued that after Sam got a taste of normal life again with Amelia, that it reignited this long-dead hope/wish, which would make some sense, but if so, I don’t think the writers did a very good job of showing that, overall. I think Dean was hitting the nail on the head when, in Season 8, Episode 3, he replies to Sam saying he’d like to get out of hunting, and Dean says - “I think that’s only how you feel now.” You could say that’s only what Dean *hopes* to be true, but I do think he’s mostly right - that after a year free of the stresses and responsibilities of hunting, there’s this shaky period of readjustment for Sam where he’s getting used to the life and it seems to him like he wants out - but as time goes on and he’s settled back into it, that wish to have a normal life goes away. Partly because, despite all the danger and horror and stress, he does genuinely enjoy it. And also because his main and biggest desire is to be with Dean (because of Sam’s codependency) and so he gets his greatest desire/need fulfilled, anyway.

I also wonder if a large part (perhaps by far the main part) of Sam expressing his supposed wish to get away from hunting in Season 8 is due to him psychologically and emotionally not being able to handle Dean’s anger and disappointment in him for giving up. Although things don’t come to a head between them over this until a few episodes in, Sam is aware from, like, five minutes into the first episode that he let Dean down (albeit unintentionally.) Although Dean mostly keep his hurt and bitterness under wraps until Episode 6, I’m sure Sam is aware from the beginning that Dean *is* hurt and angry and disappointed in him. And I really think that Sam just can’t cope with that. I think a strong case could be made that, once Dean returns in Season 8, Sam doesn’t really want to reconstruct a normal life - what he’s trying to do is run and hide from Dean’s disappointment (and his own feelings of guilt.)

eisforeidolon answered:

Yeah, I see a very large part of the times Sam and Dean have wished for normal to be a kind of ‘grass is greener’ escapist fantasy? Like, when Dean was picturing a family life with Lisa & Ben? It was when they were eyeballs deep in trying to avert the literal apocalypse. So I don’t see it as being about genuinely wanting out of his life hunting with Sam, but more being crushed under the weight of the entire world’s fate on his shoulders. With Sam, I think it’s not just issues with John and control that sent him away to Stanford, but also his admission about feeling like a freak even before he knew about the demon blood. He put that off on their life, but he admits he still felt like a freak even at Stanford, when he was doing his absolute best to live up to that “normal life” fantasy. It’s very easy to imagine that something will be satisfying than what you have now, but that doesn’t mean the reality is going to live up to what you picture.

I think that kind of fantasy also plays a part in why he keeps talking up going back to Amelia, even after he was the one who walked away from her. I could definitely see the reason he falls back on needing that idealized fantasy of what their relationship actually was as being trouble coping with Dean’s anger and disappointment and his own guilt and fears of making further regrettable choices. I think you could even incorporate the whole idea of Sam having gotten a taste of normal into that? What he comes back to in season 8 is not just typical MotW hunts - but things that are both more personal and more overwhelming. Facing Kevin who he gave up on trying to save from Crowley, and Crowley still being hot after prophets and the God tablets which could potentially cause all kinds of mayhem. Even worse? Having to deal with that without the underlying foundation of a stable relationship with Dean. Who is not just angry at him, but also twitchy, restlessly wanting to jump immediately back in with both feet, and has clearly changed in some unexpected ways giving he’s suddenly buddies with a vampire (and Sam starts freaking out about Dean having a hunting buddy he doesn’t know before he even hears the vampire part). It’s a lot. It’s not the first or last time they aren’t on the same page, but after a year of being out thinking Dean was safe in heaven rather than the perpetual monster combat afterlife? I can see why fantasizing about something easier than fixing the rift between them could appeal - but when it comes to making a real choice? Yeah, again Sam chooses Dean.

[wif-san]

I’m loving the analyses going on between you two on this subject, and it’s making me feel a little better about Carver making Sam OOC in s8 in order to manufacture drama between the brothers, now that I have a better in-canon way to look at that situation, which lines up with the thoughts I already had on it.

[Wincest & J2 fan]

garethoforkney asked:

Follow-up to your post about it not being Dean who got Sam back into hunting, but Azazel - which I wholeheartedly agree with.

I think one could argue that - once Azazel had been dealt with - Dean played a part in keeping Sam involved in hunting after that. He made it clear numerous that he wanted and needed Sam with him, and it could be said that that created a sense of obligation for Sam.

But even then, it’s not the whole picture. I would argue that Sam stayed hunting with Dean because he needed and wanted to be with his big brother as much as Dean wanted that. The issue with people placing Sam getting back into hunting (and staying in it) entirely at Dean’s feet, is that it ignores the fact that Sam is an autonomous human being who had choices. There were times when he had options to commit himself to a hunting-free life, and he didn’t.

Sam *could* have chosen to stop hunting immediately after Dean went to hell. Or, he could have chosen to stop hunting after trying and failing to save Dean rather than going off with Ruby. Once Dean returned, he could have chosen to pursue a normal life at that point. He could have chosen to try to keep pursuing a normal life during their temporary separation in Season Five. He could have chosen to have a normal life when his soul was returned to his body in Season 6. He could have chosen to build a normal life with Amelia when Dean gave him the okay to. Every single time, Sam chose to stay hunting, with Dean. And I do think that Sam actually enjoyed the life (or at least parts of it) for the most part. But I do think it was mostly because he wanted, more than anything to be with his big brother, day in, day out, all the time.

Time and time again, though, it was Sam’s choice.

eisforeidolon answered:

Oh, yeah, the part I take issue with is very specifically putting Sam leaving Stanford on Dean. Jessica’s death on that night to drive him into a revenge quest was already in the works - and the Winchesters know that.

After that things get … complicated. I’d say there are a lot of factors involved in Sam continuing to hunt.

Just in terms of outside influences, even once Azazel was dead? It’s not like Lilith, Ruby, Lucifer, or even Raphael would have let him just opt out of the apocalypse. By the time he was healed by Castiel and stable enough to potentially bail on the Leviathan mess, he was already on Dick Roman’s and the Most Wanted’s lists. Which doesn’t even get into the whole clusterfuck that is InterferingWriter!Chuck. Even in terms of just random monsters knowing their faces and reputations, I think Dabb’s ending of Sam being able to retire and stay out relies very heavily on Chuck, heaven, and hell being mostly off the table.

But while some of those perils are ones he’d have known about in advance? Some he wouldn’t. There are a fair few interludes in there where he could have tried normal again without having any more reason to expect it to be doomed than he did at Stanford. Mostly, as you say, he didn’t make that choice. Even when he did quit and stay with Amelia, he left her before Dean came back. Which he weirdly doesn’t acknowledge when he’s talking to Dean through that season about wanting to get back out after they finish the trials. (Speculating on what exactly he’s got going on in his head that season could be its own entire post, really.)

Which brings us to Dean’s influence in keeping him in the life. Leaving hunting would mean leaving Dean behind again. And in some cases, there IS a particular issue of Sam potentially feeling coerced by guilt at the idea of leaving Dean at the mercy of his own self-destructive impulses (the deal, the trials, the mark). But as you say, that’s not at all the whole story. Sam does clearly love Dean and repeatedly chooses to stay with him, even without extreme circumstances or outside pressures applying. Sam makes that choice for himself. And it is understandable because nobody else is going to understand what he’s been through and how it’s changed him on the same level that Dean can and vice versa.

Ultimately, I think people sometimes make the mistake of taking Sam’s stated yearning for normal entirely at face value when he’s clearly far more complex and conflicted than that.

As to Sam enjoying the life? This starts to get into headcanon territory, but I genuinely wonder how much of him leaving for Stanford was about hunting itself and how much was about John’s authoritarian parenting style conflicting with Sam’s desire to have some control over his own life. Even just in terms of him saying he wanted a life that was safe, I suspect having a choice and full knowledge of the danger made a big difference. Like in the pilot, I think he’s obviously pleased to be reconnecting with Dean for the sake of Dean? But watching him as they work the case, I think he’s really enjoying solving the hunt, too. I think that’s evident in plenty of other cases they solve, too.

Across the series, he does make the choice over and over to stay in, across a whole long host of differing circumstances. Including after defeating God, where it’s as sure as it can be there will be no more apocalypses. I have argued before that both Sam and Dean’s lives in the finale are tragic, because I think Sam finally got that normal life he was always yearning for - once he no longer really wanted it. I don’t see a lot of other potential reasons for why literally the only thing in Sam’s life montage in true focus is his son and his grief. No partner, no friends, no job, not even, like, hobbies. Even on his deathbed, he’s only surrounded by said son and photos of the rest of his long-dead family.

I mean, I don’t have issue with the idea it would have been much, much harder for Dean to live any kind of life if Sam died. I do get annoyed at the idea Dean was responsible for his originally being pulled back in. I have even more of a problem with some fans turning that into it being Dean’s fault Sam ~*couldn’t*~ leave, as if he was a spineless blob with no agency being held hostage against his will. Seriously, Sam Fucking Winchester.

[wif-san]

Ultimately, I think people sometimes make the mistake of taking Sam’s stated yearning for normal entirely at face value when he’s clearly far more complex and conflicted than that.

This. THANK YOU. I always get so annoyed when fans oversimplify Sam (and Dean too). Like, does Sam have a real interest in normal? Yes of course he does, but it’s not as simple as he genuinely hates hunting and wants normal and that’s the end of it. It’s more complicated than that because, as you said, Sam is more complex and conflicted than that and he clearly likes aspects from both sides.

[Wincest & J2 fan]

[wellitsgabriel]

In your personal reading of canon, Dean Winchester...

likes women exclusively

prefers women to men

likes men and women about the same

prefers men to women

likes men exclusively

See Results

pls reblob

[nancylou444]

Personal reading of canon is called HEADCANON. 🤨

Doesn't change ACTUAL CANON.

Go ahead and block me.

Samgirl that ships destiel. 🤨

Oh what's "reblob"? 🙄

[thisisaringtone]

I'm sorry, but I'm confused. You say that Dean is straight, but then you ship Wincest. Wouldn't that also go against your headcanon? I don't think this is a Destiel specific problem. Also, I believe there is more to this than "Dean dates women, so he is straight," or citing one moment out of every single season when he says "I don't swing that way" especially when he goes through so much development. And I'm confused as to why you're getting annoyed at people who headcanon Dean as bisexual, especially when this conflicts with your ship headcanons, too. So why ship Wincest if Dean is straight?

I'm asking this as a genuine question, I'm not trying to be rude or attack you, so I apologize in advance if it comes off that way. I just want to understand your point of view better.

[nancylou444]

Wouldn't that also go against your headcanon?
And there lies why YOU are confused.
Dean is straight in canon.
What I "ship" has NO bearing on what I see as CANON.

Dean has said many times that he isn't interested in men and/or ONLY looking for a woman.

Ignoring what Dean says IN CANON doesn't make "headcanons" true.

Using stereotypes (such as what he wears or how he sits) aren't "proof" of Dean's bi-ness.

Pointing to "bi lighting" doesn't make Dean bi.

Not sure what "development" you are referring to, but Dean's SEXUALITY doesn't change from The Pilot to Carry On.

[wif-san]

Yes, exactly, and there are some things that I think are worth adding on for those who still continue to misunderstand:

1. No (normal) shipper actually needs either or both characters’ sexual orientations to be compliant with their ship in order to ship it, ergo it is entirely possible to ship a character in a queer ship while still acknowledging that said character is straight in canon, because it’s not about the ship being canon or even possible in canon, though it can be very, very nice when that happens (provided the writers don’t screw it up of course).
2. SPN isn’t actually that deep, and there’s absolutely nothing nuanced about communicating any of the characters’ sexuality, as it’s not that important to the story and they’re always very clear about communicating a character’s sexuality when that happens so that everyone watching will know and be able to pick up on, ergo they don’t bother burying it 9 layers deep in subtext, they’re very upfront about it in the actual text. Examples: Damien and Barns stating they’re partners and then holding hands and the taller one laying his head on the shorter one’s shoulder, Caesar and Jesse “more like old married couple” paired with a pointed look, Charlie “he’s not my type…as in he’s a man”.
3. Therefore yes, the writers were clearly and intentionally communicating that Dean was straight when they had him say things like “I don’t play for your team” to a man and when they had him seeking ONLY women on his dating profile.

[Wincest & J2 fan]

evyscerated asked:

Ok I don't know if my previous message was sent or not, so in doubt I will repeat x). HEY <3 So I was saying that I was both a Destiel and a Wincest shipper, so this ask is absolutely not made to stirr up crap, I just wanted to point out that as I and a lot of people understood it, Dean and Sam did not share a heaven in that episode. They were allowed to peek at each other's heavens thanks to Ash, but they were not /together/ in that heaven. If I can epress myself right. Have a fab night ! :)

wincestislove answered:

Then you and this so called ‘a lot of people’ need re-watch that episode, darling. 

Dean and Sam were together in Heaven long before Ash stumbled upon them and brought them to his roadhouse. They were ALREADY together when he came to them. He did not ‘let them peak’ at anything, they were literally in heaven together before he even came to them when they ran off together into the woods to get away from Zachariah. 

AFTER finding them already together and bringing them to his roadhouse, he let them know that sometimes people share a heaven, in the special case of being soulmates. He looked at both of them pointedly so as to let them know why they happened to be in Heaven together instead of in different Heavens (that DO NOT cross paths unless you’re Ash and have figured out how because you’re a genius), and they then looked at each other in a ‘huh, so that’s why’ fashion.

They didn’t even protest it, it just was what it was. It made sense to the boys, and it made sense to the rest of us watching the episode. Sam and Dean are canonically soulmates.

[samdeangirl84]

This is a hard one to get around. Why are people still trying? 

[bangingpatchouli]

Right? For the life of me, I cannot understand the difficulty with which some fans have comprehending the narrative of “Dark Side of the Moon.” It’s been explained over and over, from Zachariah messing with their “greatest hit” memories to the two of them ending up in the same garden at the end, and they still argue that the boys don’t share a heaven. I guess you can’t convince the willfully ignorant.

[nancylou444]

I think it’s a tie between this and DEAN’S SIREN IS A GUY = DEAN IS BI as to which scene gets wrongly “interpreted” by destiehellers the most. 

[wif-san]

Yep, and there’s also the whole “Winchesterland” thing, wherein it would have been just as easy to have Ash say “Samland and Deanland” to illustrate Sam and Dean having separate heavens, yet the had Ash say “Winchesterland” to illustrate the opposite. Of course they also ignore that Sam and Dean would have needed to use certain (enochian?) symbols on a door to get to each other had they been in separate heavens, which they clearly didn’t do, and was also clearly news to them when Ash explained it all to them.

[Wincest & J2 fan]

[soberscientistlife]

Reblog if LGBTQ is welcome and safe on your account.

[Wincest & J2 fan]

[nancylou444]

My little vacation is almost over. I go back to work tomorrow. 
I wanted to get so much done, but I had real life issues that needed my attention. 

BUT I did get a head start on my Canon LGBTQ+ Character of the Day posts. \o/

As you may or may not have noticed, my queue now posts earlier so that I will have plenty of time for BONUS characters. 

The queue is set up for the rest of the week. 

• Tomorrow (May 31st) nancy444 will post as usual. 
• Thursday (June 1st) and Friday (June 2nd)  Canon LGBTQ+ Character of the Day begins. At break time, I’ll post nancy444 and a bonus character. Later that night, I’ll post another bonus character or two.
• Saturday (June 3rd) Basically the same but now I’ll set up the queue to post BOTH daily, with me directly posting bonus characters.

I will get to every character on my list. Beloved favorites that appear every year. And new characters. 

—————————————

Of course, additional characters are also welcome. The list is slightly out dated, so check the replies to make sure your fave(s) isn’t there, then drop me an ask and I’ll include them. 

Movies, tv, cartoons, comics, books.

The ONLY restriction is they have to be

CANON

Because I will research to make sure they are

CANON

Got it? 

CANON

I think that’s it. Let’s have a great Pride Month everyone. ❤️🌈

[wif-san]

Hey mama bear, just checking in to make sure you got my asks with new characters to add to your canon lgbtq+ list for pride month (and that tumblr didn’t eat them or something).

[Wincest & J2 fan]

[eisforeidolon]

Robbie Thompson tried to put an OOC I love you in Dean's mouth in Goodbye Stranger, but Jensen shut it down because it wasn't appropriate to the character. Nobody would know that, except Misha told the hellers to wind them up - conveniently leaving out that the replacement line of being family was the same intended sentiment as the original according to Thompson himself.

The set design in Stairway to Heaven for Castiel's fake heaven was going to be full of pictures of Dean in a mocking jab by Metatron, but when Jared pointed out that fans would take it as a serious hint at the ship being a thing, it was promptly taken out. Nobody would know, except Misha told the hellers to wind them up - conveniently leaving out that it was removed for being a potentially misleading joke in bad taste.

So yeah, nobody could make Jensen do the confession scene even when Misha and Bobo the Assclown conspired behind his back to cook up what looks to me like SPN's only legit queerbait and present it to him as a done deal. But when the speech itself was that pointedly ambiguous as to type of love? When it didn't involve Dean as other than a baffled spectator who explicitly couldn't reciprocate whatever feelings according to their own shitty script? When it had no impact whatsoever on Dean's own story - past, present, or future? When J2 had already been talking about having more creative control when they did a revival down the road? Would it really have been a notably better choice for Jensen to refuse to do the scene ... and wait for Misha to inevitably wind up the crazies with suggestively misleading hints of what might have been? He'd have basically been fighting against Misha ruining only his own character, when the little weasel would almost certainly turn around and sic the lunatic fringe on him specifically for saying no. Again.

I mean, I do think it was a terrible idea to throw the shippers any kind of a bone both in principle and in a practical sense, but really? We all know they were not going to be happy with anything other than the show ending in a completely OOC schmoopy fanfic-esque glurgefest D/C HEA with Sam conveniently somewhere ... else. Tantrums were inevitable. Hell, SherIock ended with the two shipped characters raising a baby together with the mother conveniently dead - the starting premise of a million shipfics. Yet shippers on the same level of batshit and refusal to accept being told no repeatedly as hellers? Rioted because it wasn't the Mostest Important-est Gay Representation EVAR they'd been promising themselves TPTB were really writing (in secret for reasons, naturally).

The goodbye scene didn't cause the still-ongoing meltdown, nor were the particulars of the finale what was really behind it - it was the decade plus of built up entitlement and delusions which not only caused it, but made it inevitable.

[germicidal-99]

If you put hints and subtext in the show, of course people pick up on it. It's kind of really toxic to blame them later on.

And putting Dean all over Castiel's heaven (who shouldn't have a heaven as an angel), is definitely a big hint. How was that supposed to be a joke in your opinion? Bad joke or not? Where is the punchline?

They queerbaited a large group of the fandom and after doing so for 15 years, they wonder over the backlash. They should have either go through with it and made the love story a beautiful part of the TV show or not bait the fans in the first place. No jokes, no hints, no confession (in the show! - cons and interviews are different).

This one-sidedly wischiwaschi they did in 15x18 and then not adress it (I'm not talking about mutual feelings, but if your best friend dies for you and confesses his love for you, you should show some feelings like mourning or decline and thank him for saving him or something or at least mention him to your brother, son or adoptive father???) and not putting Cas in the finale episode was the tip of the iceberg!

I'm not sure if Sherlock queerbaited or not, i personally prefer them having a platonic bond, including the genderswapped versions (Elementary), because that works so much better.

But here too, of course fans are pxssed about the finale? It's misogynistic to only use Mary as an uterus and then kill her off for nothing. She was a badass. A great character and addition! And they also kept their (John's and Sherlock's) relationship as hetero as possible but also tried to press them into a couple like relationship with a baby to what...appeal the fans? It's disrespectful.

Either follow through with your same-sex relationship and don't queerbait fans, which is very disrespectful towards the LGBT community OR don't queerbait at all. Keep your heterosexual characters heterosexual and friendships platonic.

*It's a common thing to make it gay enough through subtext to keep queer fans/fans who prefer queer content invested, but also keep it subtexty enough so heteronormative people (sometimes even homophobic fans!) also keep watching and don't see it.*

Toxic af!

The finale sucked for many reasons, including the wig, Dean's cheap death, his funeral no one beside Sam and the dog attended, especially given how many of his friends are still alive, Sam's blurry wife (disrespectful towards Eileen, disrespectful because the wife was only an uterus for replacement Dean), Sam having to live without Dean for decades, no one else was there (Jody, Claire, Donna, AU Charlie, AU Bobby, normal Charlie, Mary, John in heaven? No one was on the phone, face timing or in a photo) beside that unimportant Vamp Jenny....

But yes, it also sucked because Cas wasn't there. I would gladly swap the confession scene for him being in heaven with Dean or on earth with Sam.

But the writers had to fXck everything up.

I'm just glad that season 15, especially 15x20 doesn't really matter. They beat a dead horse for to long (especially season 13-15) and it ended in a horrible finale, but so did Dexter, Lost, Game of Thrones and other shows.

Supernatural isn't the only show who suffered from bad writers in later seasons and episodes.

This fandom is also the most toxic and vicious I have ever encountered. So much homophobia, harassment, insults on cons, social Media etc. from all sides.

Thanks for coming to my TED talk.

[eisforeidolon]

"If you put hints and subtext in..." [footage not found]. Subtext does not tell an entirely different story than the main story, that's not how subtext works, especially not in television. It's very important to draw a distinction between what is actually there, what could potentially be interpreted to be there while considering how realistic that actually is given the main storyline context, and what fans just wish really really hard was there. I have seen the list of supposed hints and subtext and it's a big fat load of cherry-picking, projection, and apophenia.

"They queerbaited..." [footage not found]. Shippers queerbaited each other relentlessly with bad meta full of cringe-y tired stereotypes about sexuality and toxic masculinity. When certain fans interpret literally every single interaction between two characters as sexual attraction - or in Dean's case, every single interaction with a male character as sexual attraction? Exactly how are the writers supposed to "keep [their] heterosexual characters heterosexual"? I'll give you that Misha queerbaited for years through making various suggestive hints and telling a few outright lies before going all in for a nearly textbook definition kind of way by releasing shippy merch through his company Stands directly after 15x18 knowing he wasn't in the final two episodes.

Then there's the part where you replied to this post about a particular canon scene that you seem weirdly unfamiliar with to be going off about. No, Castiel doesn't have a heaven - he was trying to get back to heaven after Metatron locked the angels out in season nine and Metatron set up a decoy entrance he dressed up as 'Castiel's heaven' for him to find. In the show, it was full of tacky ridiculous things because the writers' point was to show Metatron messing with Castiel in an OTT mocking way. The original script called for a version full of pictures of Dean, but according to Jared it was removed when he pointed out some fans would think it was a meaningful narrative hint.

If it had made it into the show, sure, we could talk about whether or not a bunch of older, out-of-touch tv writers on a dinosaur of a show like SPN still putting in lol gay jokes is queerbaiting. Especially when the showrunners and stars make unequivocal, repeated statements about their intent in regards to the ship which fans pointedly ignore. We could talk about what the realistic expectations should be there and at what point it's on fans to realize a show isn't what they want and walk away or stick to fanfic. We could talk about shifting media landscapes and expectations when queer relationships are getting much more common (yay!) but fans are also feeling much more entitled to think individual specific ships they want to be canon MUST become canon or it's baiting despite the show hinting at a lot of other ships (less yay.) or even having other non-hetero ships that aren't as popular with the fandom.

But the whole point of the post was about things that DIDN'T make it into the show, because they were recognized as being inappropriately misleading before they were filmed and aired. Yet the fandom knows about them and tries to use them as evidence because a certain actor has always been more concerned with keeping the fans coming back to him than not misleading people. Except somehow, it always seems to be the very same people complaining about how they've been mislead by the show praising Misha for frequently implying and hinting towards something he knew was never going to happen.

[germicidal-99]

Just because you ignore the footage, doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

I answer with two quotes from reddit, who summarize it pretty good:

Lovetoreader:

Okay idk what media people have been watching, but any time I heard someone cry about how we can never have straight male relationships anymore, I would love for you to look at GLAAD's media study that literally counts the amount of lgbtqia+ characters compared to all characters being created (I think it's US/western based) for the year. All of these ships that people cry about are RARELY actually canonical gay characters and it's still a major point of representation when queer characters are included at ALL in media in a meaningful and respectful capacity.

Okay but to Destiel specifically, i don't care if people ship it or not, do what u do. But to act like there was NO precedent for a romantic storyline is absurd. Supernatural is a show that RELIES on parallels heavily, and destiel falls into many of those major parallels (that i'll list in a sec.). While I totally agree that it wasn't planned from the beginning (shoutout to misha for stealin the show and becoming a series regular) it's something that clearly was played off of multiple times in the show, sometimes for laughs and sometimes in a more ambiguous way (but also spn writers, jokes are still canon, if everyone jokes about characters being in love that doesn't come from nowhere).

OKAY the parallels (yes i am a loser who is taking my time to do this, idc, it's my life). Some of these are destiel, and others are to prove that parallels (especially romantic ones) are already utilized on the show for storytelling purposes and that it shouldn't be limited to the straights.

John witnessing Mary's death on the ceiling vs Sam witnessing Jessica's death on the ceiling

Cassie vs Cas (and sam noticing how dean acts around both of them)

Sam seeing Jess everywhere after she died v Dean seeing Cas everywhere after escaping Purgatory (specifically a shot where the boys both see their partners out the window of the impala; also dreaming of them)

Lucifer using Jess's image to trick Sam vs Lucifer pretending to be Cas to trick Dean (and sam)

Dean dragging sam bodily from the building while jess burns on the ceiling vs Sam dragging dean bodily through the rift/portal thingy when cas is going to fight lucifer (which is a suicide mission)

Cain, Abel, and Collette vs Dean, Sam and Cas (Cain literally lists them and also crowley in the opposite order of how he suffered, from brother to lover etc.)

also collette only asking cain one thing (to stop) and then in the reverse crypt scene cas asking dean the same

Charlie losing her gf vs Sam losing Eileen vs Dean losing Cas (but nah just buds bein buds)

adam and eve splitting up and adam marrying an angel vs NEED I EXPLAIN THIS ONE CMON FOLKS

okay but the fact that the crypt scene literally got paralleled with the reverse crypt scene (and technically the rowena attack dog curse if u squint)

cas controlled by naomi almost kills dean

dean controlled by the mark of cain almost kills cas

literally every time an angel (or anyone i guess) asks cas to kill/betray dean and he's just like ✨no✨

the very touch of you corrupts when castiel first laid a hand on you in hell he was lost

i wont hurt dean, what broke the connection, i need you

the stench of that impala's all over your trenchcoat

you have to choose castiel its us or them

well guess what, he's dead too

cas defying the will of god vs dean defying the will of death (i mean not romantic inherently but cmON, especially when cas defies god specifically for dean)

bobby having to kill his wife multiple times vs cas having to kill copies of dean

cas returning from purgatory vs eileen returning from being dead

lisa and cas BOTH talking about wanting dean but being unable to have him

sibling parallels between Michael and Lucifer, Cain and Abel, and Dean and Sam

michael mimicking cas and casifer mimicking dean (besties that was WILD)

claire losing kaia and dean losing cas

i could go on and on and i'm sure i missed plenty, but i just sincerely doubt that a straight couple could have this much going on without being shipped. AND that if they WERE shipped, people wouldn't be whining about how we're making everything straight. double standards my dudes

conchested:

their arc was absolutely queerbait. the writers paralleled them with canon relationships, wrote in comments by other characters that suggest “more” between cas and dean (note: they’re the only pair i remember that get suggestive comments/jokes made about them consistently), emphasized the way dean and cas cared about each other (s13 when dean became severely depressed after castiel died, much like he did with sam though he didn’t try to bring cas back/sacrifice himself, but that could be him finally learning a lesson, until cas showed back up), etc etc., and then never confirming feelings between them. castiel’s confession was romantic, obviously, but it was never mentioned again. the most we got was dean’s “that’s not who i am,” to chuck in the next episode.

the writers played with our feelings because it got publicity, it kept people watching, but they never risked losing their original fanbase (even though making destiel canon would have gotten a lot more people watching, and been revolutionary in the entertainment world). they had so much potential, perfect opportunities to confirm the love story they accidentally-on-purpose wrote, and didn’t.

all this to say: i completely agree with you, and the fact that destiel is an argument in the fandom says a lot about the fanbase’s complex comprehension skill. they take everything at face value. if i didn’t connect any dots, i might be able to see their relationship as platonic.

[itswrong-thenidontwanttoberight]

I CAN’T xD Tumblr users meta isn’t the canon show omg this is hilarious using this as ‘evidence’. THIS IS JUST SHIPPING. They never wrote it into the actual show and the footage we are looking at IS THE SHOW xD I dunno what manipulated fanvids or extrodinarily dumb meta you're referring to, but reddit and tumblr do not equal canon.

[wif-san]

Your post sums it all up, and they clearly stopped reading as soon as they got to “footage not found” and completely ignored the rest, like subtext not telling a different story than the main story. That’s the main problem with hellers’ subtext meta, it’s not supported by the main story at all, because if it’s actual subtext, it should not only be supported by the main story, but also one should not need a secret decoder ring to figure it out. For all of the mountains and mountains of heller meta, they can’t pull one single piece of subtext or proof straight from canon that doesn’t need to be cherry-picked, removed from it’s context, otherwise manipulated, and/or interpreted with a secret decoder ring. In short, it really IS all just shipping (cherry-picking, manipulation of pics/gifs/video clips) and not the actual, unadulterated canon.

[Wincest & J2 fan]

[its-sassyboots]

Huh...that's weird I thought you were the ones crying screaming throwing up over the finale. I thought you were the ones with 5000 word essays on your trauma over it. I thought you were the ones still tweeting every day about how sick it makes you. I thought you were the ones bullying fans for wanting canon barn scene photo ops. I thought you screamed about being finale deniers? Insist Jensen is rewriting the finale? Did I imagine that Dottie?

If you want to play at being a victim because people don't like your "queer ship" at least go for one that actually existed. Destiel was pure fanfiction. Not our fault you can't accept it.

[nancylou444]

Wait who are the ones that think the prequel was going to “fix” the finale? 
Who are the ones that think the series ended with 15.18?

[durinsbride]

She’s only describing herself and other Hellers here. ⬆️

And no one hates your queer ship, Dottie. What we hate is your (collective) delusional and perpetual insistence that Destiel is canon and/or Dean is bisexual.

Both are factually wrong in actual bona fide canon. It’s not an opinion, an exaggeration, or a homophobic attack—it’s just absolute fact.

Destiel is not canon. Dean is not bisexual.

Wincest, as in emotional and psychological enmeshment between Sam and Dean IS canon, while sexual and/or romantic Wincest is not.

As we know the difference.

And never insist otherwise.

We don’t push our ship on other people and demand that they support it.

We keep it in the sub fandom, between ourselves.

We don’t threaten or harass others who don’t ship it. Or tell them to kill themselves over a stupid TV show.

We don’t flood social media and random, non-related tags with our purely fandom interests.

There’s a difference between these two sub fandoms, and the majority of the batshit crazy is on your hands, not ours.

[wif-san]

☝️ Exactly, also, not a word of a lie, when I started reading the screenshot, my brain registered “anti-destiel” as “destiehellers”, and I read the rest not realizing that, because it 100% accurately describes the hellers. It wasn’t until I got to the very end where it said “antis” and that, and only that (as “against” the queer ship only gave me a second’s pause before I scratched my head and moved along) made me go back to the beginning and reread it, realizing that it was actually a heller going on about non-destiel fans, once again projecting like it’s their damn job. Lol 😆